Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics)

This discussion was begun at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nicholas J. Hopper, where the early history of the discussion can be found.

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See Wikipedia:Notability (academics)/Precedents for a collection of related AfD debates and related information from the early and pre- history of this guideline (2005-2006) and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Academics_and_educators/archive, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Academics_and_educators/archive 2 for lists of all sorted deletions regarding academics since 2007.

question about independent sources

I know that the issue of independent sources has been discussed here more than once (e.g., here and here), but I'm still seeking a bit of clarification about the necessity of independent sources and what counts as independent.

• At the top of the guideline, it says that "Subjects of biographical articles on Wikipedia are required to be notable, ... as evidenced by being the subject of significant coverage in independent, reliable, secondary sources," indicating that independent sources are always required. But under the General notes, it says "Once the passage of one or more notability criteria has been verified through independent sources, or through the reliable sources listed explicitly for this purpose in the specific criteria notes..." (emphasis added), which suggests that independent sources aren't necessary for establishing notability if there are RSs that demonstrate that the academic meets one or more of the specific criteria. Am I understanding the General notes correctly, or do we always need to have a few independent secondary RSs with significant coverage, per the note at the top of the page?
• In some cases, I'm clear that some relevant info is not independent (e.g., if a university states that a professor has a named chair). But in other cases, I'm uncertain about determining what constitutes an independent source, in part because professors may be members of the societies who give them awards, may have co-authored publications with people who decide to honor them with a festschrift, are clearly associated with a society that they've been elected president of, and so forth. For example, are either of the following considered independent sources for the NPROF: a highly regarded professional society's website stating that they've given a prestigious award or named someone a fellow (if that's highly selective)? When relevant, should I always add something like "NPROF's work on Research Topic is widely cited," with a link, e.g., to their Google Scholar citations page, since the citations are generally independent? Thanks. FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

  I fear there's a significant conflict between the material in "This page in a nutshell", which I've not read recently, and the rest of the guideline, which is what editors generally follow. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:16, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, the nutshell appears inaccurate to me, and is not the definitive part of the guideline. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:32, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  I feel like I understand that definitive part, and it was really the discrepancy between the "in a nutshell" description and some of the rest that had me confused. Thanks, FactOrOpinion (talk) 04:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

In the US (and probably elsewhere) an official university page that states that they are XYZ is fine. The reason is that these are curated sites, and there are consequences if they are fake. Similarly a major society page. What is not independent, but I would think is in the "also add" category, is their personal or group web page since nobody else curates those.

"Named chair" is far, far more complex. The criteria were written for when any Dept might have 1-2 named chairs. Many top universities in the US & UK (maybe elsewhere) have found that donors like to give $$££€ to create a chair. Hence now often 1/3-1/2 of full Professors have chairs at least in the sciences. IMHO how to handle this is not as yet settled. Ldm1954 (talk) 00:28, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Hence the recent update to change "a named chair appointment" to "a named chair appointment that indicates a comparable level of achievement" [to a distinguished professorship]. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

In the context of NPROF, "independent" coverage -- typically, the cumulative coverage of the subject's research across many publications by independent academics -- isn't what is being used to write the article (though I would argue we should try to highlight the subject's research contributions based on their descriptions in IRS). Universities, award-granting societies, orgs they're members of, etc. are not independent but are acceptable for verifying that the subject does meet NPROF criteria.

As for your last question, I would not include anything about their citations (especially evaluations like "widely cited") unless it's been explicitly noted in IRS. JoelleJay (talk) 02:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Concerning the last point, I would definitely not quote being in the Stanford top 2% of scientists. Maybe we need a brief RfC or just debate on this here since I have seen it many times of late -- to add a comment to the main page that the Stanford list is not a proof of notability. Ldm1954 (talk) 02:37, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to me that this sort of claim is used more often to push paper-mill authors than for academics who have more significant accomplishments to describe. (A quick search seems to show I am listed there. I don't think it means much.) I wouldn't even use this for trying to evaluate whether someone passes WP:PROF#C1 let alone including it as content in an article. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:45, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The notes say "The most typical way of satisfying Criterion 1 is to show that the academic has been an author of highly cited academic work," referring people to the citation metrics section. So that's only for checking that someone meets Criterion 1, but not for demonstrating it in the article's text? (With the few NPROF articles I've looked at/added to, it hasn't been an issue, as they have more significant accomplishments, just trying to get clear in my own head that I understand what kind of evidence to present.) FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

That has been the way I handle it. I will often put a link to a Google Scholar profile in the external links as a nod to #C1, but I usually don't discuss the level of citations in the article text. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:01, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

FactOrOpinion I don't think it is appropriate for an editor to assess how highly the academic has been cited, even if they happen to be an expert in that field because it is original research, although you can quote others stating this in festschrifts or obituaries. You might occasionally find comments about citations for individual papers in reviews. I agree with linking the Google Scholar profile (if there's a curated one). You can also list a few of their highest-cited research papers (per Google Scholar if you don't have access to anything else) in a Selected publications section. DGG used to advise stating the GS citation count explicitly, but I don't think that's often done. I sometimes put it in a hidden-text comment in case anyone questions why those particular papers were selected. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

We kind of have to assess it for AfDs, but I agree it is inappropriate to add our own judgements to the text of articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:21, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure; I meant in the actual article. Espresso Addict (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Would you put it in external links if it's already in an authority control section at the bottom? FactOrOpinion (talk) 07:32, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I would tend to, yes; there's often a lot of miscellaneous links in that box, most of which are of only marginal value. Espresso Addict (talk) 08:57, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Are uploaded letters RS for NPROF

In a page I reviewed as part of NPP there were a couple of mentions of visiting appointments which were not sourced. In response to me request for sources the editor received letters from an academic at each of the two sites and has uploaded these as pdfs. I would like opinions on this, I cannot decide if this is OK or not. (Please ignore the COI flag this raises, that is a seperate issue.) Ldm1954 (talk) 13:40, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that a private communication satisfies WP:V. But for a minor thing like a visiting appointment, I think we can source to CV, per WP:BLPSPS. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 13:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

As a minor clarification, they are both signed letters on an official letterhead from academics in Europe that state that the person visited and collaborated. Ldm1954 (talk) 14:09, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

With that degree of digging, it sounds like something too WP:PRIMARY or at least not WP:DUE if the best documentation is unpublished letters (even with letterhead). KoA (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with KoA that this kind of documentation is not generally acceptable. I'd prefer the CV of the academic, if it were hosted at their university, though I know that can get questioned. Are the appointments significant for notability? I generally strip that kind of material out unless it looks important for some reason. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:32, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I don't think a visiting appointment would be DUE anyway. JoelleJay (talk) 00:46, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I think this could be fine. I think if the PDFs are hosted publicly on an appropriate domain, we can treat them like other self-published sources (generally okay for verifying uncontroversial claims). This seems trickier if the files are uploaded anonymously on some random domain, such as at Commons or here on English Wikipedia. Unless the editor uploading the file is attesting to their own identity (or their ability to act as an intermediary for the self-publishing institution) directly, I don't really think we can use these as sources. Might be easier to ask this question at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. Suriname0 (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd say that unless the editor has made these available through a reputable publisher, or are themselves an WP:EXPERTSPS in this context, they're not RS because there's no real way to assess their authenticity. On the broader point I agree that if you have to go to this kind of length to verify something, there's no way that it's WP:DUE. – Joe (talk) 16:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Academic notability questions on Teahouse

An academic notability questions was raised by RomanaVilgut at the Teahouse here on Nov 25th after I tagged the page Leonhard Grill for notability on Nov 21st. I was not informed about the opening of a new discussion at the Teahouse after several questions and responses on Talk:Leonhard Grill. Maybe a few others experienced in academic NPROF could comment, particularly as I nominated the article for a deletion discussion here before I became aware of the second, hidden discussion. The central question is whether an award of a prize by a smallish private foundation (Foresight Institute) in a specialized area qualifies for #C2. Mike Turnball claims it does, I have reservations. Ldm1954 (talk) 14:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology was first awarded in 1993 and our article on it has existed since 2007. We have biographies of many of its prize-winners. I take the simple view that the award of such a prize confers notability on its awardees, under our NPROF criterion #2. Others may disagree but I'd like to hear policy-based arguments if so. Leonhard Grill is a full professor at a reputable institution, so other criteria may well apply to his specific case. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:46, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull I am also interested in other opinions about the prize; I do not agree with you about its stature. On your other point, being a full professor is not enough. This has been discussed before here, although some more wordsmithing on the project page may still be needed for #C5. Ldm1954 (talk) 15:07, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's wait for other comments. Interestingly, I found via TWL this 2023 article in Scientific American which discusses Grill's work. I'll be adding it to his biography later. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

That article helps. To put my uncertainty about the award into context, compare him to Michelle Simmons (Feynman 2015) and James Tour (Feynman 2008) as the two that bracket him who have pages. Both are highly notable, high pubs and awards all of which is missing for Grill. Ldm1954 (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree that the Feynman prize has itself become notable, and thus confers notability to its recipients. Qflib (talk) 06:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

A prize merely being notable definitely does not confer C2 notability to its recipients. JoelleJay (talk) 21:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I respect your opinion. Would you like to elaborate on that? Qflib (talk) 00:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

As examples, I would suggest Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (the lowest level award in the order and generally not treated here as selective enough to confer notability), Alice T. Schafer Prize (a national award for excellence as an undergraduate student, definitely not enough for WP:PROF#C2 because it is a student award and not generally coming with enough independent press coverage for WP:GNG), and Chauvenet Prize (a best-paper award for an expository paper). Generally, what we are looking for in academic awards is awards given for significant research accomplishments or overall career, at a level at least several years out from a Ph.D., rather than student awards or awards for promising but not-yet-accomplished new researchers. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I do agree with all of those examples, and also with that logic. Qflib (talk) 06:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that the Feynman Prize has become notable. While full-prof is not enough, it is quite rare for any full professor in a research discipline at a US R1 school to be deleted at AfD. I'm trying to think if I can even remember any. Graz would certainly be the Austrian equivalent. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 23:13, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Though I guess it did just happen -- foot in mouth. Very surprised by that outcome. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 23:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Academic notability for Germany (law-specific)

I'm having a bit of a hard time adding applying Criteria 5 to German law professors, where such a structure does not exist (to the best of my knowledge). Is there a past discussion about such criteria for Germany/central Europe, or can I suggest/add my own? FortunateSons (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I have seen, C5 is generally assessed on a case-by-case basis, not a country-by-country basis. This makes sense to me, since the range of possible ways that C5 might be applied probably cannot be easily granularized this way. I would recommend if you are having trouble with specific cases that you just discuss those specific cases with other editors. Qflib (talk) 15:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

That’s a good idea, thanks; do you mind if I ping you for that? I have some broad ideas (perhaps their own faculty with staff at a significant university?), but it seems to end up being very “vibes-based”, so I would like some feedback once I know who I want to write about. FortunateSons (talk) 16:08, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes individuals are brought to this page because a specific technical question arises for the application of a specific notability criterion to a specific professor, so that’s what I was referring to. Pinging me may not get you the more valuable breadth of perspective needed. Qflib (talk) 13:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Ahh, makes sense, thank you FortunateSons (talk) 14:34, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I recently had the same topic with a professor in Austria. Given his position as a Lehrstuhl (a position analogous to a W3 in Germany), I had anticipated that he would pass C5 with ease, thats why I put him on the english wiki - he passed on C2. However, I believe that this issue is relevant to all universities in Europe, which have different criteria for professors compared to those in the USA. Given that English is the lingua franca in science, it is important for top-level European scientists (many of whom are professors) to be represented on the English Wikipedia.

Maybe this could mark the commencement of a process aimed at providing a more precise definition of C5 also for non-us-universities, thereby ensuring clarity and eliminating the need for case-by-case deliberations. RomanVilgut (talk) 07:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think that would be beneficial. Do you have an idea what a good criteria would be? FortunateSons (talk) 09:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

To recap C5

The person has held a distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research, a named chair appointment that indicates a comparable level of achievement, or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon.

Distinguished professor is an academic title given to some top tenured professors in a university, school, or department. Some distinguished professors may have endowed chairs.

This Title does not exist in Europe. In most countries, Universities exists since the late medivial period and for long you had "Ordinarius" or "Extraordinarius". In some countries, this is reflected in the modern period through certain levels (eg. Germany W1=Junior level Prof, W2=mid-level Prof, W3 is top-tear, in Austria there is §98 (full-profs) and §99 (Profs for limited time, assoc-prof, ass.prof). So, if we stick to this discription, a distinguished prof in Europe has to be what can be compared to "ordinarius". A large University usually has something about 80-200 ordinarii - so maybe "ordinarius" alone is not enough to pass C5, maybe it could be. I do not know, how it is handled with full profs in USA.

Named Chair leads to Endowed professorships. This might be common in the US, but it is very uncommon in Europe. And even if there is and "endowed professorship", it is in many cases from some state-level or state-owned/state-related organisation and is limited to a certain time. I really do not think, that this would be a good criteria for profs on European Universities.

But what do others thik? RomanVilgut (talk) 10:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

A fundamental problem with C5 is that independent of whether it is in the US, Europe or elsewhere it is (IMHO) far too vague to be useful. I have seen quite a few AfDs and AfCs where it has been claimed that just being a Professor at a university passed C5. C5 creates problems.

Many years ago any Department in the UK only had one or two full Professors. They were major positions, and in general qualified under C1-C4 with ease. When I started in the dark ages my US department only had 2-3 major chairs. Now almost every Prof has a chair, several Assoc Profs and in the UK it is now similar. The reason is that it is far easier to get donors to fund a chair with their name on it than, for instance, a piece of equipment (etc). I consider US universities (and maybe UK now) as "for-profit not-for-profit" institutions. Money rules.

Giving someone a major chair is not really an independent demonstration of notability from their peers. Often it is part of a retention package or a hiring enticement. I don't believe that the opinion of a Dean (or Provost etc) should be a guide to which academics Wikipedia considers notable. I have for some time felt that C5 should be deleted as unworkable and prone to misuse. Ldm1954 (talk) 11:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we could revise the wording, to make it about an appointment at the full professor level, that is designated as more prestigious or senior than other full professors at the same institution. That way, we might untangle it from terminology that is non-universal and non-consistent, and focus it on the intended meaning. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The wording already does say that. "The person has held a distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research, a named chair appointment that indicates a comparable level of achievement, or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon." The "comparable level of achievement" part is fairly new and intended to accomplish exactly what you say. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately people have had different interpretations even with those additions in both AfD and AfC. While I agree in spirit with the intent, it is failing in practice. I cannot think of an objective way to decide whether someone in any country qualifies for the quoted section. There is no NPOV rule. Ldm1954 (talk) 00:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Generally the way is to discuss at AfD. As for AfC, it seems reasonable to accept reasonably written/sourced drafts on holders of named chairs unless there's some obvious reason not to. AfC is not, imo, meant to hold everything to an exceptionally high standard. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:43, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Although I understand David's reply to me, I agree with Ldm that the current wording is not as clear as it could be. The current wording says that the "level of achievement" should be "comparable" to that of the appointment titles that have different meanings to different editors. What I'm suggesting is to, in effect, change "comparable to [name of title]" to "comparable to [positions at the same institution]", regardless of what a given institution calls them. So, instead of it being comparable to a named chair professorship, where we are dealing with definitions of "named chair professorship" that vary so widely as to be difficult to apply in a consistent manner, we would be saying that the person who is the bio subject needs to hold a position at their institution that is designated by that institution as being more senior or more prestigious in scholarly impact than other full professors at that institution. It would not matter where that institution is located. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I think "comparable to a named chair professorship" is a misreading. What the named chair is supposed to be comparable to is "a distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research". —David Eppstein (talk) 20:57, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

So is that a major institution of higher education and research in the US, or in Germany? Based on what other editors have said here, that can make a significant difference in how "distinguished professor appointment" is defined. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

David Eppstein, are you defining according to the current distinguished professor page? Note that page is similar to many others (Google search) such as the definition at UC Irvine, here, Rutgers or UIC. I have not checked everyone at UC Irvine, only a couple, but I believe that any UC Irvine distinguished professor would fly through C1-C4. I will argue that there should be an onus to prove that a respectable number of existing distinguished professors in the US would not pass C1-C4. If that can be demonstrated then somehow the US interpretation would have to be globalized. If, as I suspect, there are few to zero instances then C5 fails the KISS principle test. Ldm1954 (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

The AfD I recall recently where the subject held a named chair (tho' not a distinguished professorship) but had apparently relatively sparse GS citations was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kif Augustine-Adams, at BYU Law School. Espresso Addict (talk) 13:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to question her notability, but at the same time I do want to be Devils advocate. She does not obviously meet the Distinguished professor criteria, as one of seven named professors. There are BYU awards at that level called University Professors, although it is not clear who has one of them (I cannot find any).

N.B., I am not so convinced about that AfD discussion. If I look at related GS topics such as "law and sexuality" then her GS citations are in fact quite high -- here I am doing the standard calibration of citations approach. As a caveat, her topic is way into my ignorance ocean. Ldm1954 (talk) 13:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Use of citation metrics

Referring to Wikipedia:Notability (academics)#Citation_metrics: how are these metrics supposed to be used? Just in Talk to decide whether a person or work is notable, or is there a way to add them to the article? Otherwise I don't understand what that section intends. Pingnova (talk) 02:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

In discussions (such as articles for deletion) to decide whether a person is notable. I have occasionally written in articles that someone has highly cited publications in some subject, but I think the actual numbers are best avoided in articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for answering. Maybe this information should be added to the page for clarity. Pingnova (talk) 17:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)