Talk:Ducky

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DAB categorization issues

Clarityfiend, thanks for your efforts to improve this page. Couple of notes:

A nickname is a type of given name. Categorizing this page with given names is appropriate.
The documentation for {{Disambiguation}} plainly allows for surname categorization when there is only one element in the list, so this category is also appropriate.

Ibadibam (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a given name as "the name given at baptism, the Christian name".[1] Merriam-Webster Online gives the highly illuminating example "everyone calls me Jack, but my given name is John." (their italics) [2]

As for the surname, the wording "Disambiguation pages with surname-holder lists" should tell you something. This means that surnames should be split off to separate list articles. Since this is ridiculous for a single entry, there is no purpose in having this category here. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:19, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:DABNAME states that "new sections of Persons with the surname Xxxx ... can be added below the main disambiguation list". (bolding mine) Personally, I find it silly to have two sections of one entry, one after the other (and such sparse sections anywhere). Clarityfiend (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It does look a bit cluttered. How about we move the "other uses" entry to the top section, like we'd see on most dab pages? That will allow us to make the page flow better while still conforming to DABNAME.

For surname categorization, yes, it's possible and common to create a separate surname article. But this dab page still contains such a list, even if it's a list of one item, so it gets the category. I haven't been able to find any guideline, template documentation or category inclusion criteria statement that suggests otherwise.

I, too, struggled with the given name question, months ago when I added the category. The OED is unhelpfully narrow (I know a lot of non-Christians with given names). The definition from Merriam-Webster, which you omitted above, is "a name that precedes one's surname; especially first name". And that certainly is worded to cover nicknames. Yes, most of the time the term refers to personal name(s) given early in life, but I don't see a clear division between these and other given names. Parents may give a child a nickname at the same time as or even before their official personal name. How do we tell them apart? A baptismal name is not necessarily the name a person receives at birth, so in that sense might be considered a nickname, but we generally understand it as a given name. What if a person takes a different name later in life? Most people consider Jamie Foxx's given name to be "Jamie", not "Eric", and Gerald Ford's to be "Gerald" instead of "Leslie". A given name is just what it says it is: any name that is given to the individual, rather than gained inherently via membership in a family or other group. The whole issue gets very muddy, so it works better to approach nicknames as a special subset of given names, and I think this is why our fellow Wikipedians have made decisions like placing Category:Nicknames as a child of Category:Given names, and including in Category:Disambiguation pages with given-name-holder lists members like Fred, Maxi and Chi-Chi. If you think this is a bad way to go, perhaps we could consider adding an additional "nickname" category for disambiguation pages. It's a bit more work, but categorization should avoid controversy wherever possible. I'm also up for doing an RfC on the question so we can get consensus. Ibadibam (talk) 00:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cool (or should I say that's just ducky?). An RFC sounds fine. I'd like to know what others think about given names, nicknames and a whole lot of other variations. For instance, is Frank L. Frank Baum's given name? What about informal versions, like Teddy Roosevelt or Chuck Yeager? What about pen names and pseudonyms? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rubber ducky

Despite rubber ducky being a partial title match, I believe it is still one of the most likely targets for readers who have ended up at this page. The item can be referred to as ducky or duckie, as in "Put Down the Duckie". So I'd like to suggest a local consensus to include it at the top of this page as a special case of the first point of MOS:DABORDER. Ibadibam (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]