User talk:Biz

Last push needed for Byzantine Empire FAR

Hi Biz, from your comments on the FAR talk I can glean that you are busy with IRL stuff. However, the Byzantine Empire FAR was opened on 30 October 2023, and thus will complete a full year in 23 days. We should try to make a last push and have it kept before this month ends. Your review is needed for the 867-1453 subsection, and Daily life and Religion sections. After that we'll have just 3 sections left to rewrite, namely the Arts, Science and medicine & Legacy sections. I think these tasks can be done within 23 days. We should have these done within 15 days and have a full week where we can address issues raised by reviewers on the FAR. Wdyt? Matarisvan (talk) 12:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Matarisvan

Thanks for reaching out. Unfortunately, I'm busy with life priorities and travel right now, but I will free up again from October 16.

The history rewrite, and what remains of 867-1453, is being driven by @AirshipJungleman29. The Arts rewrite is being driven by @Aza24. I've stayed away from those sections as they are competent editors and there is so much else to do still.

I've done a spot check on the Religion rewrite an editor did and think that's going to need deeper review. It is a subject I have some prior knowledge in, and with the new addition of sources, means this review will be quicker to do. But I also want to see why the editor removed all of the previous content and did not incorporate the previous sources.

The Economy section an editor rewrote the first paragraph but I have not checked it and it needs more sources, as well as a review of the other paragraphs.

The legacy section needs an overhaul. I've not looked at Science and medicine.

I appreciate the work you did on Daily Life, but it needs a lot more work. For example, for clothing I found in the references of a one line statement covered in Shepard J, ed. Other Routes to Byzantium. In: The Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire c.500–1492. Cambridge University Press; 2009:53-75 Page 69. References Lopez (1945); Maguire (1997); Ball (2005), pp. 37–56, 79–89, 102–4. The little bit I've read of Jennifer Ball (Byzantine Dress: Representations of Secular Dress in Eight- to Twelfth-Century Painting, 2006, Macmillan, ISBN 1403967008n) is going to be a great addition.

I don't think we can get this done by 30 October but to your point, it needs a step up in effort so if you can give me some breathing room until Mid October, I can commit to a push. Daily Life and religion I could focus on this month and get done. Biz (talk) 19:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Biz, if I may say so, since we're already employing WP:SS here by linking to the main articles for the Daily Life subsections, I don't think we should go into too much detail. We're already dealing with the TOOBIG issue. Personally, I believe we shouldn't be caught up with perfectionism, we should just put up the best version we can for review. We didn't even have a Clothing section earlier, we shouldn't worry about being absolutely comprehensive in an article which is already too large. Wdyt? Matarisvan (talk) 18:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your energy to getting things done and pushing us. That's a good point but three reasons I disagree:

• This is a FA review. This article meant to represent the best of the subject on Wikipedia, and by extension, the Internet. The work we do here will impact many other people, articles, and websites. And a lot of the main articles are out of date, so this is to improve the general standard on the topic.
• This entire topic is heavily impacted by historical bias, including the very name Byzantine. Exploring these topics means we tap into the latest scholarship to bringing us closer to the truth. Clothing also is a topic that has bias that needs to be cleared up on (ie, I've heard an experienced editor say toga's were no longer being worn, implying the Eastern Romans's stop being Romans...however, Jennifer Ball says the toga continued in use for ceremonies and especially with the emperor and clothing evolved into fashion where women wore dresses.) These are subtle one sentence additions that can change our perception of this 'empire.
• The third reason, is we want to make this article a standard we can point to. That's why it's important we try to get multiple sources for each section, and for every sentence. I explained the standard here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Byzantine_Empire#c-Biz-20240820162900-Citations.

Clothing, as an example, fails the standard we've set but with some better references I've already read in Ball (in the late period, the impact of colonists appears such as venetian in crete, Turkish in Anatolia p6. the middle period is more distinctive 'greek'. imperial insignia is standardised; the Loros was common in the early imperial middle period but less in the late (common for 7 centuries p5); dresses are introduced for women at the end of the middle and replace the tunic in the late period; the tiraz and turbans enter during the middle period until the late. AND 1-2 other sources, with citations for every sentence, we can complete the work you started.

Help me find those 1-2 other books (perhaps what Shepherd references); we can both read the first 100 pages of Ball; and once that's done we can easily improve clothing. This is not taking a perfectionist attitude, but just doing the job right. I will be back to late nights working on this article from October 16. Biz (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2024 (UTC)