Talk:Charles Murray (political scientist)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Charles Murray (political scientist) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 3 months

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence

The article Charles Murray (political scientist), along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:

Pillars: Wikipedia articles must be neutral, verifiable and must not contain original research. Those founding principles (the Pillars) are not negotiable and cannot be overruled, even when apparent consensus to do so exists.
Original research: Wikipedia defines "original research" as "facts, allegations, ideas, and stories not already published by reliable sources". In particular, analyses or conclusions not already published in reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy are not appropriate for inclusion in articles.
Correct use of sources: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
Advocacy: Wikipedia strives towards a neutral point of view. Accordingly, it is not the appropriate venue for advocacy or for advancing a specific point of view. While coverage of all significant points of view is a necessary part of balancing an article, striving to give exposure to minority viewpoints that are not significantly expressed in reliable secondary sources is not.
Single purpose accounts: Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project.
Decorum: Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, or disruptive point-making, is prohibited.
Tag-team editing: Tag teams work in unison to push a particular point of view. Tag-team editing – to thwart core policies (neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research); or to evade procedural restrictions such as the three revert rule or to violate behavioural norms by edit warring; or to attempt to exert ownership over articles; or otherwise to prevent consensus prevailing – is prohibited.

If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first.

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Politics and Government / Science and Academia

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Low-importance).

United States: Iowa Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Iowa portal This article is supported by WikiProject Iowa (assessed as Low-importance).

Conservatism Low‑importance

	Conservatism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Politics: American / Libertarianism High‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Mid-importance).
	Libertarianism portal This article is supported by WikiProject Libertarianism (assessed as Mid-importance).

Contested edits

If IP 2601:805:8180:2d70:212a:16da:315a:3912 would like to make controversial changes to this page, they will need to persuade others first, since almost everything that is currently written here is the result of a preexisting consensus process. In particular, this edit contradicts the strong consensus of Wikipedia editors which found that the scientific consensus is that racial disparities in average performance on IQ tests are not caused by genetic differences. See this RfC: Talk:Race and intelligence/Archive 103#RfC on racial hereditarianism. All Wikipedia pages which deal with this topic must conform to the finding of that RfC, and any WP:FRINGE views which contradict it need to be described from a mainstream point of view. Generalrelative (talk) 20:18, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There have recently been edits by Rayner111 and Nrunje attempting to change this wording once again. My understanding is that the present wording is required by the WP:FRINGE guideline, and any attempts to introduce ambiguity to the statement run afoul of the prevailing consensus. I invite these editors to make their case here if they would like to see the language changed. Generalrelative (talk) 00:05, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More contested edits

I invite ShirtNShoesPls to discuss their preferred text here rather than edit warring. Happy to be persuaded, but at first glance the suggested language appears WP:UNDUE. And contrary to the assertion in your edit summary, the current version of the lead does not fail to mention his promotion of discredited ideas about race and intelligence. With particular regard to including allegations of white supremacy in the lead, see the above RfC. Generalrelative (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some parts of that edit go too far, but I do think that we should describe his views on race and intelligence in the first sentence; it's by far the thing that he's most notable for. Mentioning it only in the very last sentence feels extremely strange. --Aquillion (talk) 20:24, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I'd be open to a rewrite that does a better job highlighting what Murray is best known for so long as it comports with WP:BLP, WP:NPOV and WP:TONE. In my view, the suggested edit reads like a WP:STRAWSOCK type of argument. I'm not accusing ShirtNShoesPls of this, but we have seen this tactic in the R&I topic area and those accounts made similar types of edits. Generalrelative (talk) 21:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think second sentence tends to read better if it's a sentence that is long (as this one will be). It's only my personal preference, but putting fringe disclaimers in the first sentence always feels a bit RationalWiki for me (I enjoy a bit of RationalWiki, but still). Zenomonoz (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On topics like [[race and intelligence] or creationism we don't need to "balance" the two perspectives. WP: NPOV doesn't prevent us from taking stances if there's overwhelming evidence for one side of the dispute. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 21:31, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who are you arguing against here, ShirtNShoesPls? Generalrelative (talk) 22:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to "balance" two perspectives? What is the other perspective here? I'm saying things often read better with a short first sentence and a clarifying second sentence. Zenomonoz (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there are RS calling Murray's work pseudoscientific, let's get them into the body of the article. BODYFOLLOWSLEAD is not the way to go. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:31, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Should Charles Murray's positions on race and intelligence be described as pseudoscientific in the lead?

PREMATURE

I'm summarily closing and delisting this RfC. RfCs use up a lot of volunteer time which is Wikipedia's limiting resource, so RfC is an "expensive" process, if you follow me. You're welcome to use RfC if talk page consensus fails, but please, do try to reach talk page consensus first.—S Marshall T/C 16:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should Charles Murray's insistence that the intelligence gaps between "races" is partially or mostly attributable to genetics be mentioned in his lead? And should this page state that his beliefs on the matter are considered pseudoscientific by members of the scientific community?

Background: The information has recently been removed from several of the articles surrounding Murray, along with other "racialist" thinkers such as Richard Lynn, due to a recent Quillette article that claims that the notion is a smearjob against him and other "hereditarian" thinkers. Others state that this presents a false balance. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 17:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Close as premature: The discussion above appears (to me) to fall well short of WP:RFCBEFORE. ShirtNShoesPls has not actually engaged at all with other editors. They've simply made a single declarative statement that ignores the substance of what others are saying. And now they've repeated that pattern above in their "Background" comment. In actual fact, the R&I topic area has been subjected to wave after wave of brain-dead meatpuppetry for years. It is nothing new, and has nothing to do with the OP's preferred text being reverted. Their phrasing The information has recently been removed is frankly misleading. They tried to institute a rather radical change in tone and I reverted it as WP:UNDUE. They have made zero effort to address that concern. Generalrelative (talk) 18:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Close as premature the discussion above doesn't really justify going to a RFC yet per WP:RFCBEFORE. Nemov (talk) 14:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I posted a request for closure at WP:ANRFC due to the calls above for an early close. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Phrasing of controversial topics should follows sources and closed RFCs

The status quo is that the articles phrasing contains some editorializing. Specifically, describing Murray's views as 'discredited' and 'false'. There's already been an RFC on this topic, cited elsewhere in the talk page, finding a consensus that "the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is enough of a minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus that it falls under Wikipedia's definition of a fringe theory", because it's held by a minority of scientists in the field. I think there's a distinction between 'fringe' and 'discredited', a term that never appears in the RFC nor in any of the sources linked (at least not in the context of Murray's statements). Other reliable sources already cited for these claims argue that Murray's claims are either unproven or unprovable. For example, one writes "Murray’s views do not represent the consensus in our field...We believe there is currently no strong evidence to support this conclusion...Currently, everything we know about the specific genetic variants associated with intelligence has been discovered in people of European ancestry, but because of these genetic differences between populations, applying genetic discoveries gleaned from one population to understand another turns out to be very difficult...speculations about innate differences between the complex behavior of groups remain just that" etc. These sources repeatedly emphasize how hard it is to determine anything with certainty about the topic, a far cry from writing that Murray's hypothesis is false. Rather, they emphasize that Murray's certainty in it is false and unscientific.

As the status quo is rephrazing sources in a misleading way, I'm going to reword the article slightly to better match the RFC and the sources, writing 'fringe' instead of 'discredited', and 'unproven' instead of false, if there are no objections. Hi! (talk) 08:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The scientific consensus is that the views are fringe because they have been discredited. These are not two separate issues, and this isn't a coincidence. This has been affirmed by countless discussions on Wikipedia, not limited to the RFC you've linked. Further, Murray has never been qualified to speak on genetics or biology, so changing the article to imply that he may actually be correct misrepresents the situation and falsely legitimizes his form of pseudoscience. Grayfell (talk) 09:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about what kind of degree he has, it's about what reliable sources say. "We believe there is currently no strong evidence to support this conclusion" is hardly the same as "this hypothesis is false". As for your other claim, do you have a link to these other RFCs that use the word 'discredited'? Hi! (talk) 09:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My "claim" is that scientific racism is fringe because it has been discredited. We're not going to litigate that yet again on this talk page, and we're not going to imply that disingenuous pseudoscience may be true because it is supposedly "hard to determine". The RFC you have linked already supports the substance of this description. Grayfell (talk) 10:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a source^[1] which should clear up any uncertainty as to where the scientific consensus stands on the matter. Generalrelative (talk) 22:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FRINGE has a very specific meaning, a meaning that, in context is entirely in line with the current sentence:

a view that is now considered discredited by mainstream science

You should probably review that Wikipedia page since you seem unclear on the established Wikipedia policy definition. Brusquedandelion (talk) 09:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Bird, Kevin; Jackson, John P.; Winston, Andrew S. (November 2023). "Confronting Scientific Racism in Psychology: Lessons from Evolutionary Biology and Genetics". American Psychologist. Recent articles claim that the folk categories of race are genetically meaningful divisions, and that evolved genetic differences among races and nations are important for explaining immutable differences in cognitive ability, educational attainment, crime, sexual behavior, and wealth; all claims that are opposed by a strong scientific consensus to the contrary. ... Despite the veneer of modern science, RHR [racial hereditarian research] psychologists' recent efforts merely repeat discredited racist ideas of a century ago. The issue is truly one of scientific standards; if psychology embraced the scientific practices of evolutionary biology and genetics, current forms of RHR would not be publishable in reputable scholarly journals.

[1] Bird, Kevin; Jackson, John P.; Winston, Andrew S. (November 2023). "Confronting Scientific Racism in Psychology: Lessons from Evolutionary Biology and Genetics". American Psychologist. Recent articles claim that the folk categories of race are genetically meaningful divisions, and that evolved genetic differences among races and nations are important for explaining immutable differences in cognitive ability, educational attainment, crime, sexual behavior, and wealth; all claims that are opposed by a strong scientific consensus to the contrary. ... Despite the veneer of modern science, RHR [racial hereditarian research] psychologists' recent efforts merely repeat discredited racist ideas of a century ago. The issue is truly one of scientific standards; if psychology embraced the scientific practices of evolutionary biology and genetics, current forms of RHR would not be publishable in reputable scholarly journals.

[1]